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Author Topic: CAN ANYONE TELL ME!!!......  (Read 18900 times)
vinito
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2007, 04:56:04 PM »

lol. Cool runnin', man.
 afro

Please do post pictures of your work. That sounds cool. I even work at a printing company, but I'm not a printer and don't know that much about it. They print high-volume premium labels and I maintain and customize (constantly) their machinery and presses. It's all roll-to-roll labels (instaflex & gavure with some hot stamping of foil, etc.). None of it is large format nor artistic, so your kind of stuff sounds interesting to me.

Hey, if I sent you some art & felt, could you print a craps table layout for me?  grin (<-- looks funny with no hair)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 12:57:19 AM by vinito » Logged
tad3790
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2007, 09:05:50 AM »

no, not hiring now, we are in Ohio too....don't think that compares to Colorado. Felt is realy abrobant, we can do it on our U.V. machine, but that machine can't print the color white (for now) If you find a guy in your area with a flat bed U.V. printer that has white loaded, they can do it. We would have to screen the white, but we use a u.v. ink in screen printing that is not compatible with absorbant materials.... fabric etc. I will post coney Island in a few weeks. Have a good ho-ho season!
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vinito
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2007, 12:08:20 AM »

I have one of those DS. They aren't right though. Funny that single-dealer craps tables exist for importers to just copy, but instead they shrunk down a 12-foot table instead. That doesn't work very well, especially with just one dealer which is what you have at a house party. I'll probably just stencil one myself.

I work in a printing company, but I'm not sure I'd say I'm in the printing trade. I've picked up a few things just by osmosis, but I'm in the machinist trade, and mechanic I guess. At my age I just can't mentally take production anymore, so I've made it a point to stay as ignorant about printing as possible, or at least perceived to be so. evil I don't want them asking me to run a press every time somebody's sick. They hired me to be the machinist, and I intend it to stay that way.

Making craps tables is just a sideline.  afro
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tad3790
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2007, 09:23:20 AM »

Well, I'll change the subject.... get your opinions. Especially since it is between Xmas and new years, we are dead at work. What do you guys think about the future of pinball values? Is it going to inch up in values, or shoot up, or remain stagnent? For instance, I for one have contracted the "bug" of collecting these things. I have noticed right away that the main manufacturers are woth the most. But the gameplan, Chicago coin etc. dont bring the $$$. .... which is kinda cool to me because I can pick these up for a song and fix, and repair (which is strangly the satsfaction I get out of the deal). I have 5 machines now, and I keep buying them to fix and sell for a profit, however I fix them and don't sell them..... I just cant! I would think the lower production run the quicker the value, but it does not seem that way. For instance, I have read many comments about Chicago Coin not being quality peices compared to the ballys etc, but frankly while learning how to work on these I see no difference in basic design.... what are they talking about, it seems like the same coils, and leaf switches as the rest, what difference are they seeing? I have a bally, williams, gameplan, chicago coin.... etc, and dont see a "quality" difference at all. But people sure seem to slam the Chicago machines..... a coil is a coil, right?Also A gameplan board seems to strangly resemble a bally schematic too.... is it just perception, or bias based on fact?
Any comments??
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vinito
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2007, 06:29:14 PM »

I've got the bug too. My Sharpshooter started it all just this past July, but I got impatient waiting for waves parts shipments and stuff to arrive, so I bought a PinBot so I could start playing. Then found a good buy on a DE pin which is all fixed up now. Then last week I got a good deal on a couple EM projects, so I'm already up to five. I think that's nuts, but it's just like me to do that.

I agree with you about the quality perception. Now I have Gottlieb EM, Williams EM & SS, Game Plan and Data East, and to my eyes the differences are pretty minor and they all seem to be made to similar standards. I think often times folks will compare one pin to a different pin that's five years older and forget that their preferred maker made things different five years previous, so they think the older pin is cheaply made (or better made depending on the opinion). I think they are ALL cheaply made compared to my daily normal fare, but if they made things as high-quality as I have to, the things would have cost over 10K even 15 or 20 years ago so it wouldn't sell. Perception of quality often has a lot to do with behind-the-scenes marketing too, so what you hear may simply be what folks have decided to buy into whether they know it or not. One indicator that they are all extremely similar is the number of parts that will fit across many different manufacterers' machines.

Data East has a reputation for being cheezy too, but after seeing mine up close & personal, it sure looks like it's made damn sturdy to my eyes.

I have maxed out the space I have for machines, so my plan (HA!) is to sell one or two off to step up to newer/better pins as I go. For instance, I'm supposed to buy a Doctor Who later in January and it will take the place of PinBot, which I have yet to sell. I'm also thinking about loaning the Sharpshooter to my cousin who has a pretty cool basement rec room so I can slip one of the EM games in its place once I'm done restoring it. At the moment I'd have a hard time selling the Sharpshooter since it's my first pin and since I played it a lot back in the day. I like playing the games, but I think I enjoy working on them even more. My dream game du jour is a Twilight Zone. I'd like to run across a beater for cheap and restore it. I just don't make enough to afford buying a nice version, plus the restoring will be fun anyways.

As for selling prices, I think it can't go anywhere but up. Some games will experience normal appreciation while others will soar, but that has everything to do with simple hype. There are so many titles I have no desire at all to own the most sought-after (expensive) titles (except TZ, which I want because they supposedly just can't afford to make 'em like that anymore).

It is very cool that folks have these flawed perceptions. Since there are so many titles to choose from, there are many sleepers out there that can be enjoyed for much less expense that the hot titles. Data East made some cool games for their time and they tend to be at least 30% less than from the big three. I know my ears perk up when I see "sleeper" or "under-appreciated" in a game description. Unfortunately for me, I'm kind of leaning toward the opposite ends of the time line for what I like. I lean towards liking newer games with deep rules and older EM's, so Game Plan falls into the wrong era (though I'd still pick up a good deal on one if I have the money).

Eventually I think pin prices will be very high. Even though Stern is still in business, they aren't making them fast enough to match increased population nor attrition of old pins and this will drive the prices up. I've seen this in machine tools. There are lots of hobbyist machinists and they all want good tools. Even 20 years ago there were tons of machines around and prices were not bad. To find a decent price on one today usually means it's worn out and needs restoration (which is incredibly time-consuming and expensive for these machines). No one is making any these days except China & Taiwan and those aren't nearly as high-quality as the good names of old. Used machines are slowly disappearing through attrition so the prices just keep going up and up. I think the same thing will be true for pins and I think it will happen fast enough to be surprising even if you expect it (mostly because time just flies by so fast). Of course it's rare to see any pin on location somewhere so there aren't tons of them being quickly worn out like in the 70's & 80's, but attrition still happens. Anything that doesn't get replaced becomes progressively rarer and coveted, and that just drives the price higher. Fortunately, more pins were made than machine tools so that ought to buffer the market a bit.

The other good thing about pins vs. machine tools is that the parts are simple, low-precision and fairly universal, so it's tons easier to restore them than a lathe or milling machine (which are painfully proprietary). Send your projects to me!

There. Wow! Am I long-winded enough?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 06:54:28 PM by vinito » Logged
vinito
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2007, 10:59:40 PM »

How 'bout a non-working, beat up old Twilight Zone straight-up trade? grin

I'd just like to get back what I've got into it, which is $900.
It can be seen here: http://home.kc.rr.com/vinchenzo/pb.htm
I've done some things since those pictures were taken but I won't have a chance to update the page for another couple weeks. Feel free to drop by & check it out, but I'm in Kansas City.
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tad3790
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2007, 06:59:01 PM »

I can't imagine restoring a bridgeport, etc. that is above my knowledge level. As for increasing hobiest machinests, you hit on  one of my "do before I die" items. Im also a drag racer (hobbiest), and I get real tired of taking everything to my buddies that I need built. So much of the stuff we need for those silly cars are made of "unobtainium"...and has to be made. I would love to learn the basics.... nothing like my buddy right now that got called back to north carolina yesterday becaus the machine he set up for them is not holding .0002!!!...2 tenths is tight!yikes.
Yes!!! Pinballs...especially EMs (simple)  are really satisfying for me to work on. I like finding them broke and partial. Its a scavanger hunt, and repair project, a historical research project, and a chance to bring back a peice of pop culture from a FAR simpler time. Hell...I hardly ever play them more than 5 minutes at a time. You know,.. the journey is more enjoyment than the destination. I like playing the new stuff better, but in my eyes they don't have the days gone by  15 color spot color screen printed art, or the silly monkey (hurdy gurdy) banging on a bell in the back glass..... and those bells and clunks going off. Kooky I spose., but I've really enjoyed it. I have a holy grail of my own at this point. I am looking for a project, or just a playfield from a 1971 williams gold rush. I have one that the field is missing, and would love to once again prove my buddy wrong and make it LIVE AGAIN!
I get a lot of satisfaction out of preserving history, I just last week was in Baltimore MD, and went to the B&O railroad museum, if ya like old stuff, check it out if you ever are in the area, the steam locos they have restored are AWESOME! Nothing like running 80 mph sitting on top 12,000 gallons of boiling water and fire like those guys did, ...a nice cushy job!
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vinito
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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 08:44:18 PM »

"a nice cushy job!"
lol. No kidding. Kind of like early test pilots. And I'm guessing those guys probably complained a lot less after work than I usually do. At least I'm aware that I'm spoiled. tongue

It's kind of funny. Restoring a Bridgeport or the like is mostly a lot of elbow grease applied with primitive technology. For example, one of the best methods for creating a high-precision flat surface just involves some ink, three flat plates and a scraper, and a bunch of sweat & sore muscles. Apply that to a dozen surfaces or so and replace a few parts and "ding", you have a nice machine again.
If you want to get into machining, definitely talk to me off-group and I can help to point you in the right direction. I do it for a living, but it's still also my favorite hobby. I find it very engaging, relaxing (usually) and satisfying. Don't worry too much that you'll need to restore any machines. I have a bunch in my shop and I've luckily had to do very little restoration work on them. Just a little TLC now & then usually suffices, and most of my stuff is 50's & 60's vintage. Getting into it can still be done pretty cheap. You can "jones" for the next machine or tool forever and still not have everything you want, but you can do a lot with just one lathe OR one mill and they don't have to be very large. Anyways, feel free to contact me. I've counseled many in your shoes.

What the hell kind of machine is your buddy working on? .0002" is often the limit on watchmaker's instruments and large machines expand 5X more than that with 1* of Fahrenheit fluctuation in a room! Unless it's some kind of laser measuring instrument in a lab, it may be a case of the customer having no idea that his expectations are totally unrealistic. I often have to hold .0002" tolerance on a bearing fit or the like, but it's more a matter of operating the machine with skill and it's always that way. You can't just twiddle the knobs on a machine and expect it to spit out close tolerances like that. There are too many other variables involved. Even expensive CNC equipment fluctuates and ,0002" over an inch or so of length is difficult to hold, and usually there is an undesirable amount of scrap.

Don't tell me you have a hurdy gurdy. Some old EM with animated back glass would just be too cool. I'm about 1/3 the way through my first EM. I've gone through the lower cabinet so I still have the back box and playfield to do. I just got some super lube in the mail today so I can follow the "Shaggy" method of EM restoration. Have you looked at or considered those TOP videos? I picked them up a couple weeks ago and they are really pretty darn good. For a green hack like myself they are perfect.

Oh, yea. DS, I don't think I need too much luck with that price. That's the average rate these days for an average PinBot (with new plastics & vortex). You do know that the only auction amounts that mean anything are actual selling prices. Auctions that aren't complete yet always have low prices until the end, and some auctions start way higher than anything will ever sell. Neither number means a thing. The significant numbers on eBay are in green. I saw an auction for a local PinBot and it's so beat up that one look at the pictures convinced me not to consider it even for backup parts for my own. Of course that might have been different if I didn't already have one already as well as spread out pretty thin financially right now. I might not sell mine right away, but I don't feel ripped off with it and that's truly what I have into it.

Holy smokes. Another long post from vinito.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 08:48:27 PM by vinito » Logged
tad3790
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2007, 08:14:42 AM »

It is a block milling machine of some sort for a pro stock team. I guess the tollorance expectations are intense. Don't know, he just called me and said Im back down here trying to get that machine dialed in. Pro stock drag teams are REALLY insane and $$$ is no object...millions. Must be nice.
No I don't have a hurdy gurdy, I just let one get away recently, it went for 800.00, my bad. Won't happen again. I will look you up when I am ready to make chips.
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tad3790
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2008, 10:29:49 AM »

Well, I have successfully printed a few prototype backglasses. They look good! I cant post pics, at least I don't thinks so, so if ya wanna see pics of the repros let me know with an address. At least having these may help keep a few of these games alive and playing, and not be parted out. BW
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earlman
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« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2009, 11:31:19 AM »

Good to hear about the copyright issues- and lack thereof. I'm working on getting us a SLOUGH of GP drop targets!
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Pinball Shark
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« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2010, 10:40:05 AM »

Mr. Australia is no more, well, mostly.

Read this:

http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PP&Screen=FAQS
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